Bill James thinks steroids fueled the Twins’ two championships
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Crookednose posted 4/4/2008 from www.bugsandcranks.com [flag] |
Tags:
MLB
Kirby Puckett
Gary Gaetti
Minnesota Twins
Bill James
Comments (7)
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twins5733 +2I don't think it is fair to insinuate and guess at what players might have been doing. Obviously I am extremely biased regarding this issue, and I don't deny that steroids back then would have been a possibility, but we are talking about a seriously different atmosphere regarding the drugs back then compared with today. Also, there is no way to prove for sure that any Twins took them. Arguing that maybe the roid had helped the Twins win their titles is simply trying to tarnish an amazing achievement with guessing and speculation. Lighten up. Also, Kirby and Gaetti were not the only two players on the Twins team, yes they contributed a lot, but didn't Morris, Blyleven and Hrbek have equally important roles?? Maybe you are insinuating that two players who all of a sudden started hitting well, and happened to be on the same team, means that the entire team was juicing. No. Call it what you will, coincidence, providence, sportsmanship, athleticism, competition, drive to win, but until you can quantitatively prove otherwise, lay of the roid argument. -
studes This is an irresponsible headline. James didn't "say" Gagne and Puckett took steroids. He engaged in some irony and sarcasm. Maybe some people don't interpret his remarks that way, but they ought to at least leave room for that interpretation. -
meech.one Bill James Sarcasm = (Obvious jokes * (Chapters in book + Players mentioned))/(Possible attempts at irony)
In my preseason predictions, I calculated Bill James' SRCSM factor for his upcoming book at zero (0). He really surprised me with that Puckett/Gaetti/Steroids correlation.
In layman's terms, I don't think many people read Gold Mine for the subtle attempts at humor. If James had a reputation as a "jokester" I doubt that blurb would've stood out to Cam Martin.
Was his headline a stretch? Possibly. But it's an easier assumption to make than acne + no hair + stroke = steroid abuser.
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studes That headline was more than a "stretch." It was outright irresponsible for such a highly read website to post something like that. It misrepresented what he said.
James definitely has a reputation as a "jokester." Go back and read his Abstracts -- they're full of asides like that.
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meech.one I hear you studes, and I probably (scratch that, definitely) wouldn't have left a comment if I didn't "write" for B&C myself -- so my input may be a little biased. BUT, if this is what he wrote in his book*,
[...] Suggesting the possibility that the Twins’ two World Championships may have been aided by their team being among the first to discover…well, I’d better not go there. Nor will I point out that Gaetti was bald and had acne and Puckett died young.
Then that's like if I start off a conversation someone, "I don't mean to be an asshole, but..." and then say something asshole-ish. Well, if you didn't mean to be an asshole (or in James' case, suggest the Twins WS wins were aided by steroids), then DON'T SAY IT.
Is the headline your only beef with his post? Because he didn't exactly take James' word out-of-context. I could follow the irony argument after the "I'd better not go there" part, but his last sentence was quite malicious and would have been better off getting axed by an editor.
The Gold Mine isn't exactly the poetical works of John Keats or an Alanis Morrisette song, I doubt many of it's readers are searching for irony in there.
And to insinuate that we of Bugs&Cranks are irresponsible? Well, umm, you're probably right. But I don't agree with your assesment that "headlines like that give blogs a bad name."
*I didn't
see Evil Dead 2read the 2008 Gold Mine. Yet.-
studes Personally, I think the headline was irresponsible, and I think the tone of the article was irresponsible. Look at the links listed below. In the first link, a blogger has decided to "trust the account" without thinking about it or looking into it themselves.
Your analogy doesn't hold for me -- James was trying to make a point. He was saying that, "geez, you could accuse these guys of taking steroids, too. Why not just accuse everybody of steroids whose stats seem out of place." I can understand not liking the Puckett reference, but calling him on that is entirely different than saying he "thinks the Twins won because of steroids."
It's called irony, or sarcasm if you will. And James writes this way all the time. Of course, his readers should expect humor, irony and sarcasm. That's what he does. It's what he's done in all of his work. And if people think James is a number wonk and not a writer first, then they haven't read enough of his work.
And that's my two cents. I've said enough.
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twins5733 Little did I know I would fuel such a debate. I personally did not pick up on the sarcasm at all as the headline itself is what threw me for a loop. I can understand the sarcasm completely, and I can see the point he is making is a good one, but maybe his headline was a little irresponsible as it can easily start that sort of demoralizing rumor mill. Not everyone (as evidenced here) will pick up on the sarcasm - which is the main problem with being overly sarcastic.
Links (16)
Did Bill James suggest ‘87, ‘91 Twins tainted by steroids?
Published 4/4/2008 by Michael Rand at Randball
... that is, frankly, rather controversial and out of character. We have not read the book, but we’ll trust the account. From B&C, quoting the book: ...
A Very Special Link Dump
Published 4/4/2008 by McD at Rumors and Rants
... Georgetown) - YouTube Sports Blogs can be fun AND informational, children! The 23 biggest sports stadia in the world - Pro Traveller USC defensive end Everson Griffen gets arrested for abusing a freshman at USC - USCRipsIt/YouTube This is what you get for buying a comic published by Lens Crafters - Joe Sports Fan Man, Sabermetrics really CAN prove anything. Including how Kirby Puckett and Gary Gaetti may have been on steroids - Bugs & Cranks Kobe and I are not fighting. In fact, we're appearing in this ...
Bill James thiks the Twins are dirty cheaters
Published 4/4/2008 by Minneapolis Red Sox at Siberian Baseball
... I guess that's why it was so shocking when I read Cameron Martin's piece at Bugs & Cranks about Bill James' suggestions that those teams might have been running on something other than team spirit and a little, old fashioned Northwoods hustle. ...
Blog-Jam: Twins’ World Series Won With Steroids?
Published 4/4/2008 by jason at SPORTSbyBROOKS
• BUGS & CRANKS learns that Bill James believes the Minnesota Twins’ World Series titles may have been helped by steroids . Bill James Kirby Puckett • HOME RUN DERBY warns baseball fans not to get caught by the cameras in the all-you-can-eat section . • Jay Posner of the SAN DIEGO UNION-TRIBUNE catches up with Jeanne Zelasko , as the Fox Sports baseball anchor gets ready for another season after dealing with thyroid cancer . • MAXIM.COM captures the agony of defeat from these crushed college hoops fans . Sad Duke basketball fan ...
The Roundup - Friday
Published 4/4/2008 by Dave Rouleau at Baseball Digest Daily
... pitches at the big-league level. So despite its strength in several areas of run prevention and the 90 games they'll play in hitter's parks, Arizona will be hard-pressed to score much more than 800 runs this year. Their impatience certainly favors Colorado's Saturday starter, Jeff Francis. The 27-year-old left-hander has a fringy fastball but plus command and can take advantage of hitters with poor plate discipline. - Cameron Martin was reading the Bill James Gold Mine 2008 and found this : And finally, item 12, which concludes the essay about Atypical Seasons: "Two of the ...
Bill James Should Offer Opinions About Win Shares, Not Causes of Death
Published 4/4/2008 by Josh Alper at FanHouse
... Cameron Martin of the fine baseball blog Bugs & Cranks was reading the section of the book devoted to Atypical Seasons which highlighted years that saw players over or underachieve in notable amounts. James found that two of the greatest home run under-producers played for the 1984 Minnesota Twins. ...
Bugs & Cranks: Bill James thinks steroids fueled the Twins’ two championships
Published 4/5/2008 at BBTF's Baseball Primer Newsblog
Bugs & Cranks: Bill James thinks steroids fueled the Twins’ two championships I believe it was noted poet/Yankee apologist, Barry MacSweeney Murti, that said..."Nothing is more discouraging than unappreciated sarcasm.” And finally, item 12, which concludes the essay about Atypical Seasons: “Two of the greatest home run under-producers of all time were teammates: Kirby Puckett and Gary Gaetti in 1984. Puckett hit no home runs (-16), Gaetti hit only 5 (-19). Suggesting the possibility that the Twins’ two World Championships may have been aided by their team being among the first ...
Miscellany
Published 4/5/2008 by Ryan at The Victoria Times
... because I get the notion that the Wild can handle the assorted fragile parts the Avs have better than the couple of good, healthy parts the Flames offer, particularly with Derek Boogaard, Chris Simon, Todd Fedoruk, and Aaron Voros available to break some heads. In any event, congratulations to the Wild, and especially the fans because they have been so devoted through the years. - Bill James, he of SABR fame has clearly had fame go to his head. I want to call your attention to his newest allegations , but Bugs & Cranks does a much better job addressing them. - Lastly, tomorrow ...
Defending Bill James on Kirby Puckett
Published 4/5/2008 by Eamonn Brennan at The Postmen // A Sports Blog // Chicago, IL.
By now, the Bugs and Cranks post taking Bill James to task on his paragraph in 2008's Gold Mine -- which loosely mentions Kirby Puckett and Gary Gaetti in the same breath as steroids -- is old news. ...
Bill James's Steroid Accusations Have Higher Range Factor Than Canseco's [J'Accuse]
Published 4/5/2008 by Sussman at Deadspin
... I've said too much.
It's true that steroids can lead to baldness, but another symptom is being a dude. I can't see that being an indicator of using performance enhancers. Then again, maybe that's just my old guard baseball fan instincts kicking in. Guide us, Bill James, into a world where new stats can help us delve into yesteryear of baseball and pick out the cheaters:
SVORP (Steroid Value Over Replacement Pills) = (HR * [Acne / Bacne]) / total bases
Bill James Thinks Steroids Fueled The Twins' Two Championships [Bugs & Cranks] ...
THT Live: James brouhaha
Published 4/5/2008 by Dave Studeman at The Hardball Times
There's a baseball brouhaha on the Internet, stoked by Bugs and Cranks' contention that Bill James "thinks steroids fueled the Twins' two championship." James didn't say that... ...
Defending Bill James on Kirby Puckett
Published 4/5/2008 by Eamonn Brennan at FanHouse
... By now, the Bugs and Cranks post taking Bill James to task on his paragraph in 2008's Gold Mine -- which loosely mentions Kirby Puckett and Gary Gaetti in the same breath as steroids -- is old news. ...
Time to Get Some Sweep: Halladay vs. Beckett
Published 4/6/2008 by Stoeten at Drunk Jays Fans
... In continuing their tradition of pure excellence, a writer for Bugs and Cranks has very angrily called out Bill James for... for making a joke about the Puckett-era Twins that went completely over his head. Well done, hack! ...
Lies, Damned Lies: The Age of Suspicion by Nate Silver
Published 17 days ago at Baseball Prospectus
... . Ive sat on this subject for several weeks, as it set off a small conflagration in the blogosphere that quickly burned itself out, as I have some trepidation about launching friendly fire at someone whom I consider a colleague in spirit. But at the end of the day, I think those of us in the analytical community have a responsibility to let the facts speak for themselves. So, here goes. The article that touched off the controversy was posted at the Bugs and Cranks blog, and included the following passage from James: Two of the greatest home run under-producers of all time ...
Bullets for a Busy Day
Published 16 days ago by Jay at The Futility Infielder
... . In it, Nate Silver aims a bullet at Bill James' recent, baseless allegations that steroid usage played a part in the development of Gary Gaetti and Kirby Puckett and their subsequent success in helping the Twins to a pair of unlikely world championships. James' comments come in his latest book The Bill James Gold Mine 2008 , and as offhanded as they may have been intended, the fact that someone with his stature would stoop to the realm of the fingerpointers is a dark, dark day for baseball and for those of us who hold his legacy dear. I'd already decided I was in no hurry ...
Bavasi and the Bookshelf
Published 4 days ago by Jay at The Futility Infielder
... by Brendan C. Boyd and Fred C. Harris -- two fans explore their love affair with those cardboard slabs and the memories they represent 10. The Numbers Game by Alan Schwarz -- a wonderful exploration of the history baseball statistics, from the development of the box score to the onslaught of real-time Internet updates to the entry of performance analysis into front offices Even personally speaking, I'd be hard pressed to call this list my definitive one; at the time I was just ticked off enough at Bill James to avoid fretting over whether or not to include Whatever ...
