Fightin' Words: The Most Cursed Sports City -- Cleveland or Philly?
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Spotlight Series posted 3/27/2008 from ballhype.com |
Welcome to the BallHype Spotlight Series, Volume 3: Fightin' Words, a series of debates on sporting subjects vital and trivial. In this edition, Clevelander Scott Sargent (profile) of Waiting For Next Year and Philadelphian Matt P (profile) of The 700 Level argue over which of their cities is the most cursed sports town in America. Enjoy.
Matt P: In answering the question of which city gets to hoist the "Most Cursed" banner to its rafters, I'd like to first say I'm not at all proud of what I get to defend here. Although I can't argue that Cleveland has gone more recent years without a championship, I do think that going through the painful futility four times a year is a whole lot worse than only doing it three times (or twice, during those seasons when your football team abandoned you). Millions more fans supporting four teams in a major US market, four teams that consistently lose ... every year... while neighboring metropolises hold parades every so often, and cute warm-weather-winter teams in new-age colors celebrate while our guys golf.
Sargent: I'd argue that Cleveland is tortured to the point where a hockey franchise cannot even survive, but the NHL could disappear in to thin air and it wouldn't phase me. Not at all.
The first pitch has to be 'number of years.' Makes sense, I think. And in that aspect, we have 1983 versus 1948? We can give you the benefit of the doubt and say 1964 with the Browns - even though that was pre-Super Bowl. Even then...that's still a little bit of a gap when compared to the Sixers in 1983. Curse of Billy Penn and all.
Matt P: ESPN's Page 2 once named Cleveland America's Most Tortured Sports City, but that's different than being cursed. To be brutally honest, I think it's only a curse if your team is supposed to win, but never does. When does anyone actually, truly expect a championship in Cleveland? The Red Sox had a curse. The Cubbies have one too. And so does every team in the the Cradle of Liberty. Cleveland may hope for a parade, but expect it... God knows why, but we do.
There's a difference between being cursed and just plain sucking. Although to be honest, some years it's been easy to forget which category the Phillies and Sixers fall into.
(There. I successfully made it through a point without referencing Bone Thugs N Harmony, which is the only element of cultural significance that I associate with Cleeev-laaaan, other than Major League and the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.)
Sargent: Cursed versus tortured is undoubtedly a case of straw-grabbing. Simply because we don't have a mythical ghost of some sort to blame our losses on does not make them any easier to endure. These so-distant curses that plague the East Coast make for great marketing and between-inning montages for Fox Sports, but they're really nothing more than that. A losing drought is a losing drought, no matter which way it is sliced.
The Sports Gods are already on Philly's side. The City of Brotherly Love has benefited from the NFC, the NL and the Eastern Conference for years - so I can see why you "expect" to win. Let's face it: competition hasn't exactly been the best these days. The shocking part is, Cleveland expects to win as well; much of which is substantiated by coming so, so close over so many years. Red Right 88, The Drive, The Fumble ... all occurred during winning/playoff seasons. Just in the most inopportune times within said years. Unfortunately, for the Cavs of the late 80s, there was that guy named Jordan. And regarding Indians-Marlins, not only did we expect to win -- we were pretty heavy favorites. Apparently, Jose Mesa had his money on the underdog.
(And while I would take The Roots over Bone Thugs N Harmony any day of the week, their Grammy is unfortunately the only hardware we've seen in these parts in quite some time. The sad, sad truth of Crossroads being more effective than crossing routes...)
Matt P: To your point on the sports gods being on our side: that actually supports our "cursedness." Even in weaker conferences, we still haven't seen a parade. I will argue that the NFC East is the toughest division in football though. The bitch is that the other teams in the division keep finding a way to win Super Bowls, which results in the absolute worst part of this curse: hearing it from our rivals. Every year there's more ammo for them, and less for us. We can't even talk trash on Eli Manning anymore.
That really highlights another edge Philly has in the curse department: there's no way you hear about it like we do. Part of it is our fault, because we talk so much ourselves, but part of it is the big market thing. People just love to hate on Philly. With Cleveland, you'd have to explain why they're "cursed" to most casual fans to properly frame this debate.
And the Marlins thing? We lost on that one too, and we weren't even involved. A recent expansion team from our division has won the World Series more than the Phillies have in more than 100 years of existence. Don't get us started on Joe Table either. He was a Phillie last year. Again. Mitch Williams is also still in town, on our airwaves and berating youth basketball refs. We are constantly haunted by failures of the past, while enduring those of the present.
(We'll gladly take pride in the Roots, although their 1999 Grammy is Philly's last piece of hardware too. Christ, we both have to reach, huh?)
Sargent: I admit that the NFC East has vastly improved -- but it still doesn't help when teams with worse records in the conference can go further in the season than teams in the AFC with better records.
Being in a larger market, at least players want to be in that city. Half of Cleveland's hope belongs in players that grew up in the area and actually want to be here. We're cursed to the point where the Jim Thomes/Curt Schillings of the world feel they have a better chance at winning in Philly so they skip town. So what's that saying? Granted, you'll come back with "we had those guys and still lost," but at least you had a chance.
And I'm pretty sure that any fan of any sport is well aware of how bad things have been in Cleveland. Anyone who watched the MLB or NBA playoffs last season got to see a barrage of "My, look how bad Cleveland is!" montages courtesy of Fox and ABC. But this goes back to my past vs. present argument -- yes, anyone who's younger than the age of 20 really has no recollection of just how close we were to winning championships in all three sports. I think we had to make up the whole "stop sign" thing just to give Gen Y something to complain about for the next few years. I mean, Clay Matthews now sells used cars for a living. Talk about a twist of fate.
Matt P: That's precisely the worst part of the curse here in Philly though. We're so often on the cusp, with victory within reach, only to fail dramatically. It puts more venom in the words of our rivals, and more vitriol in our responses.
Curt Schilling? He's badmouthed the Phillies since the day he left (well before that even), wasting no time in doing so yet again after the Red Sox won last year's World Series. He came to the Phillies when he was a nothing, became a decent pitcher, then left and had success and won championships with two different franchises. Thome was just a rental to help us open the new park, and he was injured for a long period of his stay. All he really did when he was healthy was keep Ryan Howard in the minors.
As far as the NBA, you're lucky to have LeBron. The Sixers can't even seem to succeed at getting a high draft pick, so we remain mired in stagnancy. And sure the Cavs came up short last season, but no one was expecting them to win anything last year. The worst is yet to come for the Cavs, and you may deserve the mantle of "Most Cursed" when LeBron makes his very public exit, then wins a championship elsewhere.
Sargent: So, if I understand this right, being most cursed should be defined by who has had the bigger names yet hasn't won? Philly's more cursed because they've had bigger free agents yet hasn't came out on top -- in any sport -- since '83. Yet, Cleveland will be more cursed "when" LeBron leaves?
Nothing I've heard has dated back beyond the Clinton administration in terms of support. I still reiterate the fact that Cleveland hasn't seen the word "Championship" on a t-shirt unless it's preceded by the word "State" - typically involving St. Edward's wrestling or Cincinnati football. This town has seen an inordinate amount of soul-crushing losses, all to good teams, over an entirely too large of time period. Yes, a team in Philly's division won the Super Bowl. Yes, the Sixers have been destroyed by the Billy King era. And yes, the Phillies just can't seem to get a leg up on the rest of the NL East. None of these issues will ever surpass the last 50-plus years of trophyless drought that this town has endured. Ever.
Matt P: And no drought will surpass the fact that most sports fans have barely noticed Cleveland's "curse," deserving of derision as it may be. Your primary point is the duration of your loserdom, and I can't argue with time. But we have to hear it so much more, every year, in four sports, from the New Yorkers, the Washingtonians, and the smattering of morons who live in the Philly area but for some reason are Dallas Cowboys fans.
This may sound pompous, but to the rest of the country, "Cleveland sports" brings to mind only two things: Lebron James and Major League. Not wins, not losses, just "Meh." Conversely, people everywhere love to hate on Philly, and because of the curse, we have no banner to point at and say "STFU."
So I'll see you at the curse crossroads, Bizzy Bone. When all is said and done, I've never once been envious of a Cleveland fan's lot in life.
Sargent: If market size and geographical location have anything to do with how 'cursed' a team is, we wouldn't be doing this little exercise.
I will agree that present day Cleveland Sports bring to mind LeBron James, but again, we didn't just start this streak of "loserdom." And neither did Philly. If a casual fan can't recall "The Drive/Fumble/Mesa Meltdown," Jordan over Ehlo or "Red Right 88," they may want to hit ESPN Classic a few times in the near future. Any Nationally televised Cleveland game is bound to remind all of those watching just how bad things are. To say that this town isn't cursed simply because we're not a bridges trip away from New York City is just silly.
And your final line about wraps it up. Why would you be envious of a Cleveland fan? It's that much worse on this side of the border.
Keep track of the Spotlight Series at the BallHype hub or via the RSS feed. To get involved in future Spotlight Series, contact Tom Ziller.
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Comments (27)
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Jason +3I just can't get past that Roots/BTNH mismatch. Throw in two more years of LeBron/Jay-Z paranoia, and Cleveland fans have it a LOT worse. -
gootman2017 Philly can't even be the best at losing. -
JimmyMusic At least neither city is cursed with a team like the Pirates -
rickg15 I'm sorry...how's this for cursed. Our football team won a Superbowl...FOR ANOTHER CITY! Seriously, you can't just sweep that under the rug Philly fan. That outstanding Baltimore defense should have been wearing Cleveland Orange and Brown instead of ratbird purple.-
Matt P That's a great point, and I definitely lol'd at "ratbird purple" -
JimmyMusic I think you should have argued Cleveland's point instead of Sargent on that fact alone. You guys really are cursed.
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fastbreakblog Easy one--Cleveland for sure. Most of us were not even born the last time Cleveland won a major sports title. At least Philly won with the 76ers and Phillies. Then of course there is the Cheesesteak.-
chone Who needs cheesesteak when you've got the Cleveland Steamer?
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droppingdimes Definitely got to go with Cleveland. I really think that when LeBron leaves to play with the Nets, there will be a lot of Clevelanders drinking "Kool-Aid" in unison... then all the witnesses will be gone. -
Chamomiles Davis As many kicks to the balls as we fans here in Philly have received, I can certainly see how Cleveland can make a case). Perhaps a mathematical compilation of misery can be achieved by obtaining the sum total of seasons since the last championship for both cities:
Cleveland:
- Baseball (1949-94, 1995-2007): 58 seasons
- Basketball (1971-2007 ): 37 seasons
- Football (1965-95; 1999-2007): 40 seasons
Total: 136 seasons without a championship
Philadelphia:
- Baseball (1981-94; 1995-2007): 26 seasons
- Football (1960-2007): 48 seasons
- Basketball (1984-2007): 24 seasons
- Hockey (1975-2004; 2005-07): 32 seasons
Total: 130 seasons without a championship
So, in all fairness, it would seem that even with fewer teams Cleveland has suffered the longest cumulative title drought. Both of our cities have received their share of gut punches over the years.
The Browns losing three AFC championships in four years is similar to the Eagles losing three in the same span of time. However, Philly didn't lose to the same opponent three times (ouch) and eventually they got a chance to lose in the Super Bowl. So we've got that going for us, which is nice.
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PoorSports Since '93, Philly has been able to put together championship-caliber teams in all 4 major sports, only to be beaten by a "dynasty team." Observe:
In '93 Phillies lose on a Joe Carter HR in Game 6. This was the Blue-Jays' 2nd ring in a row. Hardly a dynasty, but back-to-back World Series titles are a rarity in this day.
The 1996-97 Flyers got thumped in the Stanley Cup Finals by the Detroit Red Wings, who went on to win next year, as well.
Iverson and Co. ran up against the unstoppable Lake Show in 2000-01, and became the meat in Shaq and Kobe's championship sandwich.
Finally, in 2004, the Eagles watched McNabb throw for 300+ yds and 3 TD (and unfortunately 3 INTs), handing the Pats their 3rd Super Bowl ring in 4 years.
To me, each team reaching the finals in just the past 15 years, only to be forced to play the top teams of the era is more of a curse than anything Cleveland has endured.
It's one thing to have bad teams and think you're cursed because no one wants to play for your team (Philly has thtat, too in JD Drew and Scott Rolen, just to name some Phillies in recent memory), but it's another to overcome that situation anyway, but still be forced to face the team of the era when you finally do succeed.
http://poorsportsblog.blogspot.com
p.s. i liked your caddyshack reference.
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rickg15 Ok, now imagine your '03 Eagles moving to Virginia Beach and winning the Super Bowl in '06. Oh, and then Westbrook takes the GM job when he retires, making smart picks year after year while you get handed the scraps from an expansion draft. Yeah, that's kind of like how it feels.-
PoorSports i still think those 4 scenarios combine to win out over the browns moving/winning a super bowl.
i tend to think of it this way:
being a philly fan is like having a constant case of blueballs. you're so primed and pumped for the big one to happen. and you can get so close with each team, but never quite reach that peak.
being a cleveland fan is like being that nerd who just CAN'T get laid. you just can't make the grade. sure, you've been close a few times in the last 30 years, but nothing consistent enough to really matter.
yeah, i think that the browns consecutive losses hurts, but the eagles matched them, so it's a moot point.
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rickg15 Ok, there were also two World Series losses in two years, one of which was in a game 7 as we choked the lead...have you watched any Cleveland sports lately? The Cavs would have beaten the Trail Blazers for a title had the Bulls not been the best NBA team since Red A.'s Celtics. Last year having the Red Sox down 3-1 in the ALCS? The Indians have been in the playoffs 7 of the last 12 years! I'd say that is more than a few token appearances. That smells a little like consistency. Yeah, the Browns have comepletely sucked since coming back as an expansion team. But before that they were in the playoffs 8 out of 15 years.-
PoorSports there is no way to know if the cavs would have beaten the trail blazers. that's all speculation.
as for the orignial browns, 8 out of 15 isn't even 50%. that's not consistency.
in the world series the indians even had chances to beat the marlins and the braves, 2 of the "weaker" teams to win the world series, IMO.
but i don't know if that's an argument FOR or AGAINST cleveland being more cursed. for, because they couldn't even beat the teams that were beatable when they got there, or against, because they had their shot and couldn't do it themselves.
both cities are rough places to be a fan if you're concerned about winning. philly is a great place to be a sports fan if you enjoy tearing your hair out as your team continues to blow it after getting so close.
i give the nod to philly due to having 4 major sports teams. even if you add all the browns, indians and cavs heartbreakers together, it's no more or no worse than the flyers, sixers, eagles and phillies.
you could call every other piece of evidence a push, but the 4 team thing makes the issue for me.
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rickg15 Um, first off...do your math again. 8 out of 15 is more than 50%. Your arguement was that Cleveland has "been close a few times in the last 30 years, but not consistent enough to matter."
Let's just look and see what the facts are-
Browns (since 1977) 9 trips to the playoffs in 27 seasons. (3 years no team)
Eagles 16 trips to the playoffs in 30 seasons.
Indians 7 trips to the playoffs in 30 seasons.
Phillies 6 trips to the playoffs, 1 World Series championship in 30 seasons.
Cavaliers 13 trips to the playoffs in 30 seasons.
76ers 19 trips to the playoffs and 1 NBA championship in 30 seasons.
The Sixers certainly have been a more consistent team than the Cavs, and the numbers would lead you to believe the Eagles are a more consistent team as well, but I have to reiterate that the Browns were an expansion team, and if you remember were not even afforded the same compensation that other expansion teams were because of the instant success of the Panthers and Jaguars.
For whatever reason, you seem to just want to sweep away Cleveland losing the Browns as if it were no big deal. I can't imagine the noise that would come from the city of Philadelphia if the Eagles were to leave town in the middle of the night.
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Arrowhead Addict Kansas City...lol-
Chamomiles Davis AA,
What about the '85 Royals? And I believe the Chiefs have a Lombardi Trophy in their possession.
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rickg15 I also don't quite understand the 'a team from our division won a title argument'. The Twins, Tigers, Royals, and White Sox have all won World Series since Cleveland, the Steelers have won multiple Super Bowls, and the Bulls and Pistons had dynasties in basketball. Seriously? What is the argument there? -
Evil Empire Cleveland ... Cleveland ... where is that exactly?
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ethanator1088 The Cleveland Indians have some good young talent on the Baseball team, but so do to the Philly’s.
Neither football team is dominate.
The tie breaker goes to King James for the current situation. Philadelphia is worst right now.
For all time I will have to go with Cleveland to be the worst. Philadelphia has a ton of great athletes and stories. Cleveland not so much.
WOW! I just made everyone mad at me. :-)
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Zorgon Oklahoma City
The closest thing we've ever gotten to a pro franchise is the Oklahoma Wranglers (AFL), the Oklahoma City Blazers (CHL), Oklahoma City Cavalary (CBA) and the Oklahoma Redhawks/89ers (AAA Baseball). The last time we've ever gotten a league championship out of them was in 1997 with the Cavalry. And, right after that, the Cavalry folded. Despite this, we lead these minor leagues in attendance every year.
When we finally did (sort of) get a team (the New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets), we got two seasons of lots of hope and very little playoffs. When they decide to leave town for a city that won't buy the cheapest seats in the League, they become first in the Western Conference with the best Point Guard in the League at the helm.
Now, after all of the support we gave them, we're going to get the worst team in the league (which might not come because a court might rule for them to stay in Seattle) with a "rookie of the year" from Texas (our hated rivals) who shoots the worst percentage ever and no supporting pieces. So yeah, this city has been screwed over many times.
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gootman2017 Its most cursed sports city, not most cursed business district. I stayed there one night passing through and didn't see one car one the streets.-
Zorgon It's Oklahoma City. I mean, what else are we supposed to tall it? Oklahoma Town? Oklahoma Village? Sorry, we're pretty uncreative. So technically, we're a city. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
And....why would you pass through here? It's a lot more interesting to stay in Dallas.
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PoorSports you can't be the most cursed sports city when you have no sports teams. you were awarded an NBA team due to a national disaster in that team's home city and then the team left once their home city was (somewhat) back in decent condition.
every other team you mentioned is known only by the people in that area, if that.
just because you live there doesn't make it a cursed sports town. nothing in oklahoma city sports history even compares to either Philly or Cleveland.
nowhere in your rambling, incoherent response did you come close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. we are all dumber for having listened to it. i award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
;)
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Zorgon Uhh..what? Okay, compare your sportsblog to adonalobsessed.blogspot.com (or what's left of it), and you decide which amkes more sense.
FYI, the Hornets will leave New Orleans, no question. Look at the attendance for the team at the top of the Western Conference.
Yep, and we're really sad about those minor league teams, because all else that there is to get excited about is OU and OSU.
I declare us cursed!!!!
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djdeac Cleveland, definitely.
The Sixers won 2 titles in the 80's on the strength of the Doctor. The last time a Cleveland team won a title, Johnson was president, the Cavs didn't exist, and interracial marriage was illegal in 31 states. Sure, Philadelphia lost the Athletics and the Warriors but they got the Phillies and the 76ers in their stead.
I can hear the crying about the Phillies - Jays World Series but the Jays were way better. Sorry, you were supposed to lose.
The Browns teams that lost to the Broncos were way better teams...
We still don't have an NHL team to replace the one we lost (we got passed over for Columbus) and we got the Browns to replace...the...Browns.
The Eagles have been to the Super Bowl and almost won it. The Browns have never gone.
Also, Philly deserves no sympathy. They ran off Moses, Charles Barkley, AI, Randall Cunningham and they want to do the same to McNabb.
Cleveland teams just trade their best players not run them off...
...oh yeah, and we don't boo Santa.
Links (3)
The Linc 3.27.08 - Donovan Vitale
Published 3/27/2008 by JasonB <info@bleedinggreennation.com> at Bleeding Green Nation: Front Page Posts
... week when we're analyzing Kris Wilson's college stats. Please NFL Draft, come save us! (Eagle Scout) Donovan McNabb has made his picks for the sweet 16. What do your brackets look like? There is a BGN bracket group on ESPN, but I haven't been able to locate it since I signed up! (Yardbarker) In the "punch to gut" dept, our "favorite" writer got a new job. (Iggles Blog) Two bloggers argue over which is the more cursed sports city, Cleveland or Philadelphia? (Ballhype) Newest Eagle Kris Wilson works out with Flex ...
Most Cursed Sports Town: Cleveland or Philadelphia?
Published 3/27/2008 by Scott at WaitingForNextYear
... been the lack of championship banners on the ceilings of our areans and the walls of our stadia. Thankfully, we haven’t gone unnoticed as the folks over at BallHype have decided to include this town in their latest Spotlight Series: Fightin’ Words. I was very fortunate to represent Cleveland as we are pitted against Philadelphia to see who could bring home the crown of never being crowned. By all means, visit BallHype today to check it out. If you need a link, I got you covered. Fightin’ Words: The Most Cursed Sports City — Cleveland or Philly? Feel free to leave comments ...
The Most Cursed Sports City: Philly or Cleveland
Published 3/27/2008 by Matt P at The700Level.com - Philly Sports & Minutiae
... When we were approached by the fine folks at BallHype to participate in a "Spotlight Series: Fightin' Words" debate over which sports city was more cursed, Philly or Cleveland, the first question that came to mind was, "Which side do you want me to take?" Usually, when I'm in a debate regarding Philly sports, I'm defending our virtues and pointing out the flaws of the other team. In this debate, I would be doing the opposite—making the case for our unparalleled futility. ...
