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Fightin' Words: The Most Cursed Sports City -- Cleveland or Philly?
Spotlight Series posted 3/27/2008 from ballhype.com
Welcome to the BallHype Spotlight Series, Volume 3: Fightin' Words, a series of debates on sporting subjects vital and trivial. In this edition, Clevelander Scott Sargent (profile) of Waiting For Next Year and Philadelphian Matt P (profile) of The 700 Level argue over which of their cities is the most cursed sports town in America. Enjoy.
Matt P: In answering the question of which city gets to hoist the "Most Cursed" banner to its rafters, I'd like to first say I'm not at all proud of what I get to defend here. Although I can't argue that Cleveland has gone more recent years without a championship, I do think that going through the painful futility four times a year is a whole lot worse than only doing it three times (or twice, during those seasons when your football team abandoned you). Millions more fans supporting four teams in a major US market, four teams that consistently lose ... every year... while neighboring metropolises hold parades every so often, and cute warm-weather-winter teams in new-age colors celebrate while our guys golf.
Sargent: I'd argue that Cleveland is tortured to the point where a hockey franchise cannot even survive, but the NHL could disappear in to thin air and it wouldn't phase me. Not at all.
The first pitch has to be 'number of years.' Makes sense, I think. And in that aspect, we have 1983 versus 1948? We can give you the benefit of the doubt and say 1964 with the Browns - even though that was pre-Super Bowl. Even then...that's still a little bit of a gap when compared to the Sixers in 1983. Curse of Billy Penn and all.
Matt P: ESPN's Page 2 once named Cleveland America's Most Tortured Sports City, but that's different than being cursed. To be brutally honest, I think it's only a curse if your team is supposed to win, but never does. When does anyone actually, truly expect a championship in Cleveland? The Red Sox had a curse. The Cubbies have one too. And so does every team in the the Cradle of Liberty. Cleveland may hope for a parade, but expect it... God knows why, but we do.
There's a difference between being cursed and just plain sucking. Although to be honest, some years it's been easy to forget which category the Phillies and Sixers fall into.
(There. I successfully made it through a point without referencing Bone Thugs N Harmony, which is the only element of cultural significance that I associate with Cleeev-laaaan, other than Major League and the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.)
Sargent: Cursed versus tortured is undoubtedly a case of straw-grabbing. Simply because we don't have a mythical ghost of some sort to blame our losses on does not make them any easier to endure. These so-distant curses that plague the East Coast make for great marketing and between-inning montages for Fox Sports, but they're really nothing more than that. A losing drought is a losing drought, no matter which way it is sliced.
The Sports Gods are already on Philly's side. The City of Brotherly Love has benefited from the NFC, the NL and the Eastern Conference for years - so I can see why you "expect" to win. Let's face it: competition hasn't exactly been the best these days. The shocking part is, Cleveland expects to win as well; much of which is substantiated by coming so, so close over so many years. Red Right 88, The Drive, The Fumble ... all occurred during winning/playoff seasons. Just in the most inopportune times within said years. Unfortunately, for the Cavs of the late 80s, there was that guy named Jordan. And regarding Indians-Marlins, not only did we expect to win -- we were pretty heavy favorites. Apparently, Jose Mesa had his money on the underdog.
(And while I would take The Roots over Bone Thugs N Harmony any day of the week, their Grammy is unfortunately the only hardware we've seen in these parts in quite some time. The sad, sad truth of Crossroads being more effective than crossing routes...)
Matt P: To your point on the sports gods being on our side: that actually supports our "cursedness." Even in weaker conferences, we still haven't seen a parade. I will argue that the NFC East is the toughest division in football though. The bitch is that the other teams in the division keep finding a way to win Super Bowls, which results in the absolute worst part of this curse: hearing it from our rivals. Every year there's more ammo for them, and less for us. We can't even talk trash on Eli Manning anymore.
That really highlights another edge Philly has in the curse department: there's no way you hear about it like we do. Part of it is our fault, because we talk so much ourselves, but part of it is the big market thing. People just love to hate on Philly. With Cleveland, you'd have to explain why they're "cursed" to most casual fans to properly frame this debate.
And the Marlins thing? We lost on that one too, and we weren't even involved. A recent expansion team from our division has won the World Series more than the Phillies have in more than 100 years of existence. Don't get us started on Joe Table either. He was a Phillie last year. Again. Mitch Williams is also still in town, on our airwaves and berating youth basketball refs. We are constantly haunted by failures of the past, while enduring those of the present.
(We'll gladly take pride in the Roots, although their 1999 Grammy is Philly's last piece of hardware too. Christ, we both have to reach, huh?)
Sargent: I admit that the NFC East has vastly improved -- but it still doesn't help when teams with worse records in the conference can go further in the season than teams in the AFC with better records.
Being in a larger market, at least players want to be in that city. Half of Cleveland's hope belongs in players that grew up in the area and actually want to be here. We're cursed to the point where the Jim Thomes/Curt Schillings of the world feel they have a better chance at winning in Philly so they skip town. So what's that saying? Granted, you'll come back with "we had those guys and still lost," but at least you had a chance.
And I'm pretty sure that any fan of any sport is well aware of how bad things have been in Cleveland. Anyone who watched the MLB or NBA playoffs last season got to see a barrage of "My, look how bad Cleveland is!" montages courtesy of Fox and ABC. But this goes back to my past vs. present argument -- yes, anyone who's younger than the age of 20 really has no recollection of just how close we were to winning championships in all three sports. I think we had to make up the whole "stop sign" thing just to give Gen Y something to complain about for the next few years. I mean, Clay Matthews now sells used cars for a living. Talk about a twist of fate.
Matt P: That's precisely the worst part of the curse here in Philly though. We're so often on the cusp, with victory within reach, only to fail dramatically. It puts more venom in the words of our rivals, and more vitriol in our responses.
Curt Schilling? He's badmouthed the Phillies since the day he left (well before that even), wasting no time in doing so yet again after the Red Sox won last year's World Series. He came to the Phillies when he was a nothing, became a decent pitcher, then left and had success and won championships with two different franchises. Thome was just a rental to help us open the new park, and he was injured for a long period of his stay. All he really did when he was healthy was keep Ryan Howard in the minors.
As far as the NBA, you're lucky to have LeBron. The Sixers can't even seem to succeed at getting a high draft pick, so we remain mired in stagnancy. And sure the Cavs came up short last season, but no one was expecting them to win anything last year. The worst is yet to come for the Cavs, and you may deserve the mantle of "Most Cursed" when LeBron makes his very public exit, then wins a championship elsewhere.
Sargent: So, if I understand this right, being most cursed should be defined by who has had the bigger names yet hasn't won? Philly's more cursed because they've had bigger free agents yet hasn't came out on top -- in any sport -- since '83. Yet, Cleveland will be more cursed "when" LeBron leaves?
Nothing I've heard has dated back beyond the Clinton administration in terms of support. I still reiterate the fact that Cleveland hasn't seen the word "Championship" on a t-shirt unless it's preceded by the word "State" - typically involving St. Edward's wrestling or Cincinnati football. This town has seen an inordinate amount of soul-crushing losses, all to good teams, over an entirely too large of time period. Yes, a team in Philly's division won the Super Bowl. Yes, the Sixers have been destroyed by the Billy King era. And yes, the Phillies just can't seem to get a leg up on the rest of the NL East. None of these issues will ever surpass the last 50-plus years of trophyless drought that this town has endured. Ever.
Matt P: And no drought will surpass the fact that most sports fans have barely noticed Cleveland's "curse," deserving of derision as it may be. Your primary point is the duration of your loserdom, and I can't argue with time. But we have to hear it so much more, every year, in four sports, from the New Yorkers, the Washingtonians, and the smattering of morons who live in the Philly area but for some reason are Dallas Cowboys fans.
This may sound pompous, but to the rest of the country, "Cleveland sports" brings to mind only two things: Lebron James and Major League. Not wins, not losses, just "Meh." Conversely, people everywhere love to hate on Philly, and because of the curse, we have no banner to point at and say "STFU."
So I'll see you at the curse crossroads, Bizzy Bone. When all is said and done, I've never once been envious of a Cleveland fan's lot in life.
Sargent: If market size and geographical location have anything to do with how 'cursed' a team is, we wouldn't be doing this little exercise.
I will agree that present day Cleveland Sports bring to mind LeBron James, but again, we didn't just start this streak of "loserdom." And neither did Philly. If a casual fan can't recall "The Drive/Fumble/Mesa Meltdown," Jordan over Ehlo or "Red Right 88," they may want to hit ESPN Classic a few times in the near future. Any Nationally televised Cleveland game is bound to remind all of those watching just how bad things are. To say that this town isn't cursed simply because we're not a bridges trip away from New York City is just silly.
And your final line about wraps it up. Why would you be envious of a Cleveland fan? It's that much worse on this side of the border.
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