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MikeL123 Not that it matters much, but out of curiosity: is the final graph taking their best seasons as a whole, or is the first point for each of them their best hitting year plus their best fielding, each potentially coming from different years?-
skyking162 It's their best seasons as a whole. For example, 1997 hitting is combined with 1997 fielding, etc.
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StatsGuru Would it be possible to include a career graph as well as the best season's graph? I'd like to know if their worst seasons were at the beginning or end of their careers.-
skyking162 Here you go: link
Pudge had a later peak, relatively, and Piazza had two huge down years in the middle of his.
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skyking162 A reader on my blog just mentioned that I failed to combine the three 1998 lines for Piazza (and the 2008 lines for ARod) when he spent time on multiple teams. If you click through to the graph, ignore the hole in the middle of Piazza's peak. I'll fix it later tonight.-
skyking162 Actually, fixed now.
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birtelcom Gary Carter looks pretty competitive with these three guys on your metrics, yes?-
skyking162 Yes. His best two years don't match Bench, but he's equal to or ahead of him slightly through their eighth-best seasons. Then Bench is barely ahead for a few and well ahead for a couple (but below the 4 WAR level). In career WAR, Bench is at about 69, then Pudge at 68, then Fisk at 67, Carter at 65, and Piazza at 58.
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studes Real nice job, Sky. The only thing I'd add is that I think the measure of catcher defense isn't as foolproof as your article makes it seem. Controlling the running game is only one aspect of a catcher's defense. I personally think Piazza was an excellent handler of pitchers, but it's tough to quantify that.-
skyking162 Yeah, the whole handling of pitchers thing is tough. Sean's system includes more than SB/CS, though, with WP/PB rates.-
studes Yeah, though I don't think WP/PB rates will matter much.-
skyking162 Per Brian Cartright's research, fielding "groundballs" matters on a magnitude of +/-2 runs over an historical season. WP/PB rate matters on the order of +/- 5 runs per season. Kurt Suzuki led in 2008 at +7 runs.
Looking at the table of projected 2009 catcher defense numbers in the article, the eye-balled "90th-percentile" for SBruns is +7, while it's +4 for WP/PBruns.
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birtelcom Comparing the career WAR numbers to Bill James' career Win Shares (WS) numbers, it seems as if WS includes a greater weighting toward catcher offense (as opposed to catcher defense) than WAR. When I adjust the WAR and WS numbers to the same scale, I find WAR rates I-Rod at about 10% greater value than WS, while WAR rates Piazza at about 7% lower value than WS and Fisk about 5% lower value than WS. Carter and Bench, with their balance of excellence on both offense and defense rate virtually the same in WAR and WS. For WS numbers, by the way, I'm using the James original formula, not the slightly revised one that THT has used the past few seasons.
THT: Kalkman: Piazza vs. Bench vs. Pudge
BBTF's Baseball Primer Newsblog —
THT: Kalkman: Piazza vs. Bench vs. Pudge There’s a disturbing pimple, Jack Fimple joke in there somewhere...but I’m busy dispensing Dublin Duck Dispensary. In case you missed it, Sean Smith introduced his historical WAR database last week, providing seasonal wins-above-replacement values for every significant player since 1955 (the retrosheet era). Since he was kind enough to include a measure of catcher defense (in addition to almost every other piece of data you might want, such as baserunning and outfield arms), we can take a look at one of many dead-horse debates: Who was ...
The Best Catcher of the Retrosheet era
THE BOOK--Playing The Percentages In Baseball —
Sky gives us the breakdown. And, I must say, I love the presentation.
My most recent offering at The Hardball Times takes a look at the career values of Mike Piazza (all...
Beyond the Box Score —
... My most recent offering at The Hardball Times takes a look at the career values of Mike Piazza (all hit), Ivan Rodriguez (all field), and Johnny Bench (a lot of each) -- good idea, Dan. To give away the punchline in the incessant Piazza vs. Bench debate, Piazza leads in career hitting RAA by 158 runs and Bench leads in career catcher defense RAA by 158 runs. All three have remarkably similar Hall of Fame cases based on ...
WHAT ABOUT JERRY GROTE?
Kranepool Society :: A New York Mets Blog —
... So why the “Get off my lawn” diatribe you wonder? Well the good folks at The Hardball Time have an outstanding post on the comparison between Mike Piazza, Pudge Rodriguez and <head bowed> Johnny Bench that fired my middle aged ass up this morning ...
Lost Time Is Not Found Again: March 12, 2009
MOUTHPIECE Blog // A Chicago-Addled Sports Blog —
... to make sense of the Luol Deng situation. Henry raises some fair points, but maybe the question that begs to be asked here is this: Are the Bulls intentionally trying to make Deng look bad? {TrueHoop.}
+ The Garbage Time All-Stars ink up The_Real_Shaq. {Ball Don’t Lie.}
+ Your dad is now playing for the Timberwolves. {The Blowtorch.}
+ Who was the best: Mike Piazza, Johnny Bench or Pudge Rodriguez? {The Hardball Times.}
+ Non-sports: The Sears Tower is ...
Friday Filberts
ESPN Feed: neyer rob —
... piece about Mark Prior's pitching mechanics . And I'll bet you a dollar you're pulling for Prior after you read it.• Alex Belth presents all sides of the controversy surrounding Matt McCarthy's book .• In his uniquely Posnanskian ways, Posnanski wonders why there are so many players from the 1920s and '30s in the Hall of Fame. Pinto follows up -- in his Pintonian ways -- and then follows up again .• I don't know graphs, but I know what I like .• What would happen if Frank Miller drew the Peanuts playing baseball? Wonder no ...
Piazza vs. Bench vs. Pudge
True Blue LA —
Piazza vs. Bench vs. Pudge
Sky Kalkman, of SB Nation's own excellent Beyond The Box Score, wrote a terrific breakdown of three all-time great catchers for The Hardball Times. Kalkman used the recently released historical WAR Database from Sean ...
